Yes, from what I’ve read, Jesus was born in the spring as that is the only time shepherds watch their flocks by night; during the lambing season which occurs in the spring - or so I’ve read. It might have been Emperor Constantine or the council he convened that decided December 25 as the date for Christmas. December 25 was already the date for the feast of Saturnalia.

Submitting:
While you answered another’s question above regarding Islamic tradition, you mentioned that you were under the impression that Hanukkah was held in December for convenience in regarsd to Christmas.

Hanukkah, has absolutely nothing to do with Christmas, it is a commemoration of an event that happened within one hundred years before Christ was even born.

And as a matter of fact, CHrist was not born at this time of year. December 25th is the date a Roman ruler decided upon sometime in the 3rd century. People had been celebrating the birth of Christ around this time, ironically, because of Hanukkah. For the first hundred or so years of Christianity the romans outlawed its practice, people sacrificed quite a lot tob e able to practice Christianity before Rome decided they liked the idea. And so, instead of celebrating Christ’s birth later in the year (I believe it was closer to Spring) the Christians celebrated Christmas during early winte, because Jews were celebrating hanukkah at that time, and the pagan reliions were celbrating Yule at that time, the christian celebration was not as noticeable as it would have been had they been the only group celebrating.

There IS a concept of afterlife in Judaism. There is much written about both a “hell” type afterlife and a “heaven” type afterlife in Talmud, Mishna, and Tanach. In more traditional sects of Judaism, schools teach these concepts, in these cicrcles such concepts are considered truths.

What may account for the impression you have that there is no real idea of an afterlife in Jewish thought is that you were either talking to or getting your information from a Jew who was uneducated in Jewish philosophy, history and Torah and/or these Jews may have been affiliated with a more modern sect of Judaism who do not much dwell on the idea of an afterlife and have disagreed in their doctrine with the original teachings of Judaism. This is fine, this progression of sects and faction of belief, but when a Jew does not represent all of Judaism, particularly excluding the traditional end from whcih it all stems, they are doing the rest of the world a disservice, i think.

“HEAVEN” IN JEWISH TRADITION

Tanach mentions “the world to come” which refers to both the messianic age and a spiritual afterlife, it mentions about the death of certain biblical characters that they will be “gathered to his people”, and the concept of kareit or kareis, the cutting off or spiritual excision of the soul from other Jews, as the punishment for certain sins . All of these are refernces from the the Torah and related writings to an afterlife.

In Jewish tradition there are several schools of thought regarding this afterlife, in some it is very similar to the Christian idea of heaven, a place in which, there is no physical componenet and each soul communes with God. Specific descriptions of it vary from one source to another, but mishnaic source describes a feeling of peace so intense we cannot fathom it, other sources compare the bliss of the afterlife to the joy of sex or the warmth of a sunny day.

Other schools of thought believe in reincarnation, and still others prefer to focus on the Here and Now rather than abstract hypotheticals of after life. Becuase Jews think what is most important is one’s conduct in the current world. One’s focus should be on being the best possible human being youi can be, the best jew you can be if you are jew, the best gentile you can be if you are a gentile.

“HELL” IN JEWISH TRADITION

As for “Hell”…the traditional and historical belief of Judaism, that which is written in the Tanach, commentaries on this in the talmud, et cetera is that there does indeed exist a hell, or Gehinnom or She’ol in hebrew, some schools of thought teach that every sin we commit creates an angel of destructionand after we die we are punished by the very demons that we created.

Some views see Gehinnom more like the Christina idea of Hell, others see it as a time when we can objectively comprehend the actions our lives, see the harm that we have done and the opportunities we missed, and experience remorse for our actions.

Whatever the description of hell is though, there is generally the cap that the time period does not exceed 12 months, and after this period in hell, the soul has been cleansed and purified and may join God in Olam HaBa, the world to come, or Gan Eden or heaven or whichever name you prefer.

Of course, there is the exception of the truly wicked, who not ascend at the end of this period; their souls are punished for the entire 12 months. Sources differ on what happens at the end of those 12 months: some say that the wicked soul is completely destroyed and ceases to exist while others say that the soul continues to exist in a state of consciousness of remorse. They say, these wicked would have to be really awful, Pol Pot or Hitler, to name relatively modern wicked men.

This 12-month limit is repeated in many places in the Talmud, and it is connected to the mourning cycles and the recitation of Kaddish.

LovingJesus: How do I know I will be in the arms of my Creator? Again, I’m being asked a question that can’t be answered rationally.

Why believe things that can’t be proven scientifically? Maybe for no better reason than doing so makes life meaningful. I do my best to fulfill the commandments for the sake of being my best self spiritually. Why get an education or lose weight or quit smoking other than to be one’s best self educationally, professionally, or healthy?

This sort of brings me to someone else’s discussion: I believe the question was why did God create us - or words to that effect. In the Jewish perspective, God created us out of love just as parents create their babies out of love. They want something to nurture and love. God didn’t create us out of need but out of desire and to be co-creators with Him. Kabbalah teaches that God purposely left a part of creation unfinished; it is our task to bring about the completion of creation. We accomplish this by “tikkun olam” (repair of the world) and by fulfilling the commandments.

SubmittingSays: You asked about the Jewish calendar and the date of Hanukkah. Like the Muslim calendar, the Jewish calendar is also lunar. However, since that makes the Jewish months shorter than the Gregorian months, an extra month is added every few years. We have not just one month of Adar but Adar I and Adar II in order that our calendar will be re-set so to speak. That way, Passover will always occur in the spring as it is commanded to be. If we didn’t have a “leap month,” Passover would eventually travel all over the calendar which can’t happen.

Hanukkah always falls on the 25th day of the month of Kislev. However, since the Jewish calendar doesn’t coincide with the Gregorian, Hanukkah appears to be a “movable feast.” It has nothing to do with fitting in with Christmas; Hanukkah is not the “Jewish Christmas,” has nothing to do with Christmas and only falls near or on Christmas by accident. It can begin as early as the day after Thanksgiving.

Liahona: I can’t think of any Jewish scripture that refer to an afterlife - not in the sense that most of us understand. There are a few verses that say something like: “Let me not go down into Sheol” with Sheol being interpreted as some kind of hell. However, from my reading, Sheol wasn’t nearly as abstract as hell; Sheol was a definite, physical place. It was Jerusalem’s garbage pit! (In fact, I understand that it is still a known place today). So the writer was asking God please don’t let him end up being put out in the trash!

TruthSays: Jews have a different commentary about Abraham and Sarah. I won’t bother elaborating because I see from so many of the postings here that it would be a waste of my time and only incite argument.

So I guess that leads to my question for others: To those who believe as some of the Christians here - that there is no way for unbelievers to join hands - why are you here?

I would like to wish everyone a Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year. My prayer for 2007 is that we would grow in our understanding of others and put away our insecurities.

I remember hearing a beautiful sermon about how to tell true believers in God from false ones, and the answer was “by their fruit shall ye judge them.”

It seems to me that if God loves all people, then people that unite others, heal misunderstandings, love and accept one another, and do good for one another are pleasing to God.

People who incite division, pick quarrels, and encourage conflict are ones that I choose to avoid.

I’d love to stick around if this is a place to discuss in a spirit of openness. I’ll have to peel myself off the wall first and shake myself off.

Comment: “Truth” said that there is no way to join hands in our beliefs because our beliefs are different. I have to disagree with that. We are all God’s children and He loves every one of us equally. I feel one of the main reasons we are here on earth is to reach out and help one another along the way in this rough life we find ourselves participating in. We are to “love our neighbor as ourselves” . I happen to hold Christ up as my supreme exemplar and teacher and redeemer, but that doesn’t mean I can’t love and understand and join hands with those of other faiths, just as He did. The experiences of the women in Faith Club was a perfect example of how each of their lives were enriched by learning from each of their spiritual sisters. They were lead to study their own religions and question parts of their religion and look for more spiritual enlightenment. How can learning and growth and tolerance ever be negative in our lives. If we are afraid to study that which believe and test its validity in our lives, then our faith is shallow or not based on truth.

Truth Says:

October 4th, 2006 at 9:35 pm
John 3:18
“Whoever belives in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son.”

There is no way to join hands in our beliefs.. Our beliefs are different. True Christians believe Jesus is the only way to Heaven.. Jews deny Christ as the Messiah, and Muslims only call him a profit.. Neither believe his is GOD. True christians believe he is..!

Perhaps it is the same reason that liberal religionists are reluctant to criticize fundamentalists and/or evangelicals.

In many, if not most quarters, the notion exists that religious ideas are exempt from examination, comment and criticism. That is one of the major points in Sam Harris’ END OF FAITH. Richard Dawkins is also critical of this special status afforded religious ideas.

As part of Dawkins’ current book promotion tour, he is interviewed: