Comments on: Who Gets to Heaven?

by: Csviola

Mon, 06 Aug 2007 03:43:17 +0000

So I realize this is a very old post and probably no one will read it, but I am new to this blog and have to recommend this beautiful book: Good Goats: Healing Our Image of God, by Dennis, Sheila, and Matthew Linn. They argue that because God loves everyone unconditionally, we can indeed hope that God will heal and save everyone. It’s written from the Christian and specifically the Catholic tradition, but I think it could be meaningful for anyone who’s suffered from a judgmental image of God–their own or other people’s.

Because I am Christian, I believe that salvation is through Christ–but this does NOT mean that only those who self-identify as Christian go to heaven. Jesus came for everyone, and the important thing is to follow in the way of Jesus, which is love. Anyone of any religion, or none, can live in love, and “God is love, and all who live in love live in God, and God in them” (1 John 4:16).

by: Cytocop

Mon, 01 Jan 2007 04:19:58 +0000

Malka, thank you for your very kind words.

To return to the original question, there are dozens of verses in the Jewish Bible that affirm that good people do go to heaven. In Judaism, it is our repentence and conduct that count. A few samples from Ezekiel:

18:9: “(he that) Hath walked in my statutes and hath kept my judgments to deal truly; he is just, he shall surely live…”

18:17: “(a son) that… hath executed my judgments, hath walked in my statutes, he shall not die for the iniquity of his father, he shall surely live.”

18:20: “The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.”

18:21: “But if the wicked will turn from all his sins that he hath committed and keep all my statues and do that which is lawful and right, he shall surely live, he shall not die…”

18:22: “All his transgressions that he hath committed, they shall not be mentioned unto him: in his righteousness that he hath done he shall live.”

And from Psalms:
51:17: “The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit: a broken and a contrite heart, O God, thou wilt not despise.”

139:8: “If I acend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there.”

145:20: “The Lord preserveth all them that love him…”

Deuteronomy 30:2-3: “Thou shalt return to the Lord… and obey His voice… that the Lord will have compassion on thee…”

Isaiah 55:7: “Let the wicked forsake his ways… and let him return to the Lord, and he will have mercy on him; he will abundantly pardon.”

In Judaism, mankind is surely not depraved and condemned. We have the power to save ourselves. It wouldn’t make sense for God to give us the Law if we were incapable of it. I know what Christian scriptures say on the subject. I’d like to know what the Qur’an has to say.

I wish everyone a very happy, healthy (and safe!) 2007.

by: MALKA

Sun, 31 Dec 2006 21:39:35 +0000

Cytocop,

You seem very well-versed in Judaism. And I did not feel you were presenting an inaccurate picture, my annoyiongly strident comments that were inappropriate were for a comment made near the beginning of the book, they were not directed at you .

Everything you’ve posted seems very thoughtful and researched.

by: Cytocop

Sun, 31 Dec 2006 19:56:14 +0000

My knowledge of Judaism is uneven; there are holes in my Jewish education. I’m not a Talmid Chacham like other writers here. If I had the time and financial resources to go to rabbinic seminary, I would. There is a lifetime of knowledge to learn, and I got a late start. I apologize for presenting an inaccurate picture of Judaism; what I’ve written comes from my limited understanding.

by: The Faith Club

Sun, 31 Dec 2006 15:23:26 +0000

Priscilla here again!
“No worries,” as a laid back friend of mine likes to say. I have really enjoyed reading all the postings on our blog, am thrilled and grateful for the discussions taking place. In fact, I feel I have learned a great deal about aspects of my own religion that I had never researched. And yes, perhaps if I had said “Reform Jews don’t have the promise of an afterlife” it would have been more clear that I was speaking as a reform Jew. But back when we had these discussions, Ranya and Suzanne knew that fact very well!
Again, thanks for all of the stimulating conversations!

by: Cytocop

Sun, 31 Dec 2006 13:52:18 +0000

Malka, I think you might have been confusing me with Priscilla. It was me who wrote the offending posting. I didn’t mean to speak for all Jews; I couldn’t possibly do that. From now on, I’ll try to be more specific about what I’m addressing. So sorry for the confusion.

by: MALKA

Sun, 31 Dec 2006 08:40:38 +0000

Priscilla:

I am sorry that you felt I was not respecting your belief that you have no definitive afterlife. Perhaps I become too strident on certain points concerning mainstream American society’s view of Judaism simply because I have had intelligent, educated people ask me the strangest things, or assume things regarding Judaism that simply are not true.

I would like to note that though I had a Jewish education and i currently study the Abrahamic Faiths in a comparative religion program, I am not an Orthodox Jew and in fact struggle with many of the same doubts about God and concerns about faith that you relate in the book.

My response was that in the Chapter “Where are you God?” you tell both Ranya and Suzanne “Jews don’t have the promise of an afterlife.” And as I just completed a section of learning on precisely that topic I was surprised to see that statement. I have not studied Reform Jewish philosophy and so this is obviously something that is not believed in the Reform movement. I guess you did mention in the book that your rabbi was Reform but perhaps it upset me that your statement did not include the word “Reform”. Someone posted something on this site about Jews not having an afterlife because of the statement you made, you referred to Jews, not Reform Jews and so the impression, at least to me and that person who posted the comment, seemed a blanket statement about all jewish belief. And I guess that is why I said that I felt all of Judaism should be represented, but you are right. That is unreasonable and unrealistic to expect one person to be a representative of all denominations of one religion. I suppose I just wished you might have been more specific in your statements regarding Jewish beliefs. And again perhaps my very strong reaction is simply because i just recently completed a section on Jewish writings and ideas of the afterlife and was shocked to see all of that dismissed.

However, I do apologize for sounding as if I do not think you are “correctly” practicing Judaism, as I do not practice or follow or observe any parts of it at all, I have no opinion on Reform vs Orthodox. Perhaps I should begin to research the philosophies of Modern movements within the Abrahamic faiths so as to get a more balanced perspective of practitioners therein.

Please accept my apologies for offending you and disrespecting your beliefs. I really do appreciate this book in ways too tremendous to detail. I have laerned a great deal and in very specific awe of you, and your co-authors.

by: The Faith Club

Sun, 31 Dec 2006 05:37:48 +0000

I have been struggling with whether or not to post a comment. (This is Priscilla speaking.) And then I came across this posting:

“The discussions I’ve been reading here are just like the ones I read on Jewish message boards: everyone arguing that their interpretation of Torah is correct, and if you ain’t Orthodox, you ain’t Jewish. It’s OK to disagree. But I believe - in the spirit of the Faith Club - that disagreements stay respectful and courteous. If we disagree, we just agree to disagree. I’ll never prove that my interpretation of Torah is correct, and nobody will prove their interpretation is correct.”

So, “in the spirit of The Faith Club,” I decided to address a comment that “when a Jew does not represent all of Judaism, particularly excluding the traditional end from which it all stems, they are doing the rest of the world a disservice.”

I am sorry if anyone is disappointed that I have not “correctly” represented the Jewish concept of an afterlife in The Faith Club. I specifically stated in the book that I represent just one Jew’s experience and opinion. I did not write this book with the intention of “representing all of Judaism.” The biggest lesson I learned from this experience was the importance of humility, and I certainly never meant to represent myself as an authority on anything but my own struggle to live life with grace, as a human being raised as a Jew.

I want to be very clear that I have found everyone’s postings to be fascinating and informative, and I thank everyone very much for their personal, meaningful, enthusiastic and well-researched participation.

What I would like to say in terms of my eternal struggle to understand life and death is that at my time of deepest sorrow - on the occasion of my father’s death and at other heartbreaking funerals I have attended – deeply spiritual, well-educated reform rabbis have shaped my viewpoint that I have not been promised a definitive afterlife by God. I have lived with that concept for much of my adult life, and ask that it be respected. I spend a great deal of time lately dealing with the concept of my own mortality, and my struggle is deeply personal. The more I think about the issue of an afterlife, the more I embrace the mystery of not having been given any definitive answers by my rabbis. I have spoken with Jews who have a different viewpoint, but, as I said, my comments reflect my own personal beliefs. I have embraced the unknowable aspect of what an afterlife is. The fact that I do not have all the answers to life’s complex problems (or even some of my own day-to-day issues!) is humbling, liberating and challenging.

by: MALKA

Fri, 29 Dec 2006 05:15:20 +0000

I really must correct this misconception that Judaism does not hold in its philosophy and theology the concept of an afterlife. While I am thoroughly thankful and amazed and impressed by all three of the authors and while all three of them seem to be intelligent, kind, generous, and empathetic women, there were some ideas put forth in the book that were incorrect in regards to the Jewish faith. One of these was the idea that there is no “Heaven”.
Judaism certainly has in its history, see talmud, mishna, midrashim and even the Tanach will mention this, it is called Olam HaBa, the World to Come. There is evidence that can be brought from the text of the Torah to prove this idea, the Torah indi cates in several places that those who are considered tzadikim, righteous, will be reunited with their loved ones after death, while those considered rashim, wicked, will be excluded from this reunion. And yes, there is a also a tradition of “Hell” in Judaism. It is not neccessarily eternal, the ideas of the afterlife are open to debate, because Judaism is not about abstract possibilities of life after death.
Judaism message is “You are here, now, make the most of it, be the best person you can be, be the best Jew if you are Jew, be the best gentile if you are a gentile, help the world become a better place” if this is followed in life, there will be no fear of spiritual punishment after death.
But there is very certainly a tradition of afterlife in Judaism, the Torah often mentions how somone is “gathered to his peoples”, and it is described as a separate event from the physical death of the body or the burial/funeral. There are alos certain sins punishable by kareit or kareis, the spirtual excision from your people, this means that the soul loses it portion in the Olam Haba, the World to Come.
The Jews are constantly in hope that their messiah will soon arrive, this is what is meant by the constant invoking of “Next Year in Jerusalem!”, this means “By this time next year, the messiah will have come and we will be living a a sort of “heaven on earth” in jerusalem, there will be peace in the world, between Jews and Gentiles”.
The Talmud teaches that “This world is like the eve of Shabbat, the Sabbath, and the Olam Ha-Ba, the World to Come is like Shabbat. He who prepares on the eve of Shabbat will have food to eat on Shabbat.” We prepare ourselves for the Olam Ha-Ba through Torah study and mitzvot, the plural of the word mitzvah, which means commandment.
In the book the word mitzvah was translated as “good deed” this is a common misconception and I am not quite sure how it developed, perhaps it is a colloquialism of modern American English among American Jews, however, the word mitzvah, comes from the word tzava, to command, the letters mem and yud at the beginning of the word creating the “Mi” sound mean “From God”, “Mitzvah, therefore is literally a divine commandment.
I guess I got a little bit off track, but it was upsetting me that people were under the impression that Judaism has no concept of an afterlife and that the religion belives death is the end, there is nothing after. That is not the case. I was raised in a Jewish household and had an extensive jewish education. I am majoring in Comparative Religion, currently with an emphasis on the Abrahamic Faiths. I lvoe this books, I love these women for beginning this project and supporting the spread of the same ideas across the world. But i also feel that correct information must be put forth.

by: Cytocop

Mon, 25 Dec 2006 23:37:28 +0000

In response to what ehtaca wrote, there are many verses in the Jewish Bible that refer to righteous people, and not in some futuristic messianic sense but in the sense that they can and do exist in reality.

I haven’t decided whether there’s an afterlife or heaven/hell or not. My jury might remain out until I find out for myself. I agree with what some of the other contributors have written, about creating our own heaven/hell. I know there are many stories of people who have died and had an afterdeath experience that they can remember very vividly when revived. These stories are fascinating, and the effect they have on the people is inspiring. But science has an explanation for these experiences so I’m not sure how to interpret them. I keep an open mind.

Judaism is concerned about the here and now, making this life holy and sanctifying our lives while we’re alive. This might have a historical context because much of Jewish thought was forged during the Egyptian experience. Pharaonic Egypt was somewhat obsessed with death given their elaborate burial customs. As a way of throwing off the yoke of Egypt, the Hebrews might have deliberately abandoned thoughts of the afterlife and focused instead on living.

A life well-lived is its own reward.